The son of the late Biafran warlord, late Chukwuemeka Odumegwu Ojukwu and the current Sole Administrator for Nnewi North Local Government area of Anambra State, Chief Emeka Ojukwu (jnr.), in this interview with PAMELA EBOH speaks on his late father’s attitude to life and what should be the focus of President Muhammadu Buhari’s administration
What vacuum in Igbo land do you think has arisen since the death of your father, Ikemba Ndigbo?
It’s definitely a huge vacuum, you know. If you look at what is happening in the country now, we Igbos need a strong voice that will stand up for us, stand up against injustice, encourage and lead us. There are many excesses since he died where we can see that he is sorely missed.
I do believe that we do have leaders amongst us but the opportunity has not come for them to rise up. I wouldn’t want to believe that men like my father and late Sen. Uche Chukwumerije lived their lives and set examples in vain. I would like to believe that they were able to impact on the younger generation some useful ideas that would help to groom new leaders that would lead by example. So, I’m hopeful that such leaders would emerge.
Why do you think it is difficult for a leader to emerge among the Igbos?
Nigeria is a strange society. As you go through us, the younger ones who are trying to make a living, make a contribution or have an impact, you find out that those who have been in leadership positions for decades are still around struggling for the same positions.
It’s a thing that is maybe not unique to Nigeria but certainly not in the Nigerian system. You find out that you are struggling with your fathers and grandfathers for the same opportunity. That has been an issue.
Of course, we have respect for the elders and what have you. When you find yourself in such a position, perhaps you will not be aggressive as you will normally be because of the context. I think that has been the problem.
There needs to be a change. When former President Goodluck Jonathan took over the mantle of leadership, there was a lot of hope in Nigeria; that there would be a change and he would usher in new blood.
I remember how disappointed people were when he decided to use the old guard. For me, that was the beginning of the end. Hopefully President Buhari will think outside of the box and select young blood, fresh thinkers, people that can come up with new ideas. We were disappointed in the previous regime when he did not do that.
Some people believe that the Igbo nation has always been taken for granted in the polity. Why so?
I hear such things a lot. I think we have to take ourselves seriously before other people can take us seriously. If we continue selling ourselves out and continue undermining ourselves and future for personal interest, then, what do we expect?
We expect every person, every group to struggle for self-actualisation, f o r power, for survival, longevity and so on. And t h e n , there are some lessons we haven’t learnt. Igbo people historically have been like a bucket of crabs; every time somebody tries to rise to the top, we pull him down.
We have people thinking only for themselves and not for the greater good of the masses. Everybody has come to know that, when they devise their formulas and strategies for success, the fact is that we would still let ourselves down. So, I think we have to look inwards first before we start pointing fingers outside. We have to look at ourselves and change.
There are things in this world that are greater than money. We have to sacrifice for the greater good of the people.
What role do you think the Igbo nation should play in the political administration of Buhari?
There was a lot of talk that the Igbo people were not represented in APC, that maybe because of the different roles people played. So be it, they have emerged winners, the President now is from APC, the party in control and there is a wind of change. PDP which has been in power for decades in Nigeria seems to be imploding.
We have to find a niche within the next dispensation, whether Buhari’s administration, APC administration, it needs to be inclusive in nature for them to be able to succeed. It has to reach out to all quarters of Nigeria so.
It behooves on them to reach out to everybody from all divides. It would be beneficial not only to them but to us. We also have to think beyond the traditional ways we have been thinking.
We have to look for new alliances, new relationships and perhaps also look inwards to change some of the norms that we have been living with. Whatever worked yesterday, by this I mean whatever formula that worked yesterday must not necessarily be the formula that will work today. So, we have to adapt, change and above all think on the long term for our own survival and wellbeing. We have to be flexible and do what it takes as a group to grow and prosper.
I repeat, individuals who have access to power and wealth tend to think for themselves only. This has been the bane of the Igbo people. If we can change from that attitude and begin to take collective decisions for the good of many, then I think we will get out of that picture. If we don’t, we will continue be third class citizens. It is left to us to make ourselves better. I don’t believe in the idea that someone is victimising us, No, we the Igbo people are the ones victimising ourselves.
Do you think a typical Hausa man would be comfortable working with the Igbo people closely rather than other ethnic groups in the country?
Why not? I don’t see any reason to the contrary.
Historically, the relationship between the Hausas and the Igbos has been good. But beyond that, we have to find ways to get along with each other. Hausa people need Igbo people, Igbo people need Hausa people.
So, we have to find a common ground to get things work for the good of all concerned. I don’t really look at things that way; maybe because you are this, then this or that is not possible. It all has to do with i n d i – vidual relationships than group relationship.
Are you ready and do you think you have the capacity and capability to fit into your late father’s shoes?
People ask me that question a lot. My late father was a hero, someone who left his mark in the history of the world. You don’t try to fit into his shoes, you just try to learn from what he has taught you, what experience has equally taught you and try to do the best you can.
That was what he did. When my father was growing up, he had a father who was larger than life but he carved a niche for himself which was different from what Sir Odumegwu Ojukwu, his father, chose.
It behooves on us the younger generation to carve our own niche and choose our own path. We don’t have to be like him and on top of that, I always say, times have changed. The Nigeria in which he grew up is not the Nigeria in which we are living now. So, what is needed is a different scale of tools.
What is important is to survive and prosper and whatever you need to do, to achieve that is what you need to do. You don’t have to look back and try to do what they did. They did what they needed to do in their time with different scenarios and conditions.
So, we have to do what we need to do.
What do you miss most about him?
He was a steady and constant factor, somebody you could rely on. He was a source of wisdom, source of knowledge, history, facts, figures, great adviser and he was an honest person. I remember when I was getting married for the first time, I went to him for advice and while I was alone with him, he said, “Listen, this is my third marriage.
So, I don’t think I’m the right person to give you advice. I suggest you look for someone else to advise you.”
That was the type of person he was but quite frankly, he was right because obviously, he had failed twice and he was on the third one. That was an honest advice and he was the kind of person that would do that. Somebody else may want to concoct stories but he was quite frank about it so. I sought advice elsewhere.
What was the best advice you got in that instance?
Well, it wouldn’t be the best advice because that first marriage didn’t work.
When do you think Nigeria would be ripe for Igbo Presidency?
We are ripe for Igbo presidency but the calculations, permutations and mistakes we have made as Igbo people have not allowed us to attain that particular goal. But, I think we need to be more strategic thinkers.
Sometimes, when I look around, I see Igbo people as people playing draught while the rest of the country is playing chess. Draught is a game of three, four, five moves while chess is a game of 14, 15, 16 and 20 moves ahead.
We are not long term strategic thinkers. It’s always in the expediency of the moment that we try to solve the problems as they come. We don’t plan. We don’t plan for tomorrow. We only strategise and make decisions for now instead of the greater good down the road and we continue to suffer for it. Igbo people need to stop playing draught and start playing chess.
Who do you think will be able to boldly and honestly lead the way without fanning his personal interest or ambition?
I don’t know. Like I said earlier, I believe that we have leaders among us and I don’t know if those leaders will be able to take the forefront and take the rightful place.
What of the pan-Igbo Organisation, Ohaneze Ndigbo? I recall, in an interview first Republic Minister, Chief Mbazulike Amaechi, accused Ohaneze Ndigbo of misleading the Igbos during the presidential election. Don’t you have faith in their capability to lead too?
There have been a lot of troubles in that organisation, but I wouldn’t want to go into that; it’s not also wise to wash our dirty linen in public. But, certainly there have been issues there. My father had issues with that organisation; others like the man you just mentioned had issues with them.
You know no organisation of that type that will not make mistakes. They have made mistakes along the way unwittingly but at the end of the day, we have the prerogative to choose those that would represent us, be it Ohaneze or whatever other group that may come up.
If that group is not represented as one body, then the opportunity is there for us to make a change. In any case, what is the membership of Ohaneze Ndigbo and what stops some of the younger ones and some of the critics from joining the ranks of Ohaneze and introducing the change they are talking about into the system?
The bottom line is for Igbo people…just remember that the needs are many but what is paramount is the need of the few.
I continue saying that it is the downfall of Ndigbo, if we get beyond that, then we will have the wherewithal, economic and intellectual resources to succeed and be leaders in Nigeria, West Africa and beyond.
You ran for the House of Representative seat for Nnewi North/South/Ekwusigo federal constituency. To you, you won but the PDP candidate was declared the winner. Do you have confidence that as you pursue your mandate at the tribunal, that you will get the result upturned in your favour?
Totally, we are very hopeful. We have our facts and figures. I mean, it was clear what happened. I had a landslide victory, even those that purportedly won, if you look at them, they are not carrying themselves like people that won.
We have the evidence that showed that we won and I believe in the judiciary. There are many examples in Nigeria that show that once legal matters are handled properly, they will make the right decisions.
So, I am confident that there we will be victorious. The election was won by APGA candidates and it was very obvious.
How then was your mandate stolen?
What happened was that in the dying hours of the night, those who claimed to be supporters of the then President Goodluck Jonathan and claimed to be acting on orders from the Villa came, took over the collation centers with armed thugs and with other security personnel, whether they were on legal or illegal duty, I don’t know.
They chased away the police that were there, chased people away including myself and rewrote the results completely. But thank God we have our polling booth results that we will take to court and contest what they wrote. Unfortunately, they were such in a hurry that they made lots of mistakes. We know who won, everybody knows who won.
In fact, we threw a victory party even after they did what they did because we were convinced we won regardless of what they announced. We know we shall be vindicated but even if things don’t go right, as we know the country we live in, it will not change the truth. I know there would be other opportunities. The change at the top gives us hope also because of those that in essence took over from PDP.
This is because some of these things were not done by PDP stalwarts; there was a group of people that essentially took over claiming that they could deliver Mr. President but they were not able to do that.
They were so engrossed in petty vendetta, so engrossed in trying to flex their muscles at the local level to show they were kingpins in their localities that they forgot their primary objective of delivering Mr. President.
When they couldn’t do that, every other thing fell like a pack of cards; that is what they are suffering now. If they had kept their eyes on the goal and delivered their president, then, all things would have flown naturally. Bullies and people who believe they have the mandate to act with impunity tend to make mistakes and that is what has happened.
That election was your first experience contesting for any political position. What was it like?
Yes, that was my first experience and I enjoyed every bit of the campaigns, the entire process. It is also in a sense a good thing that these things happened. I am also now going through the tribunal process; it’s all part of it. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing that you are right and I know that I won, everybody knows I won.
The court has the opportunity to do the right thing and if we are able to present our case well, I think, we will pull through but if not, tomorrow is another day. The bottom line is that those they tried to perpetrate fraud lost at the higher level; they are suffering from it now and running helter skater.
That in itself is success and I thank God that two weeks later in the state House of Assembly elections, and with the boasting of those folks that came to perpetrate fraud that APGA would lose and (Governor Willie) Obiano would be impeached, they failed woefully. I am much more satisfied with that result than mine.
If I were to choose, I would rather lose my election and the state assembly goes the way of Governor Willie Obiano. I would rather that happen. Let me lose and let him win because it is better for Anambra.
With the outcome of the presidential election, especially in the area of vote spread, do you think Buhari is a pan Nigeria President?
Honestly, I think so. You have to remember that there was a concerted effort to deliver him beyond PDP and APGA alliance and still it was not achieved. It shows somebody that has a lot of respect in Nigeria. He is also feared and respected and there is a sense amongst Nigerians that he is somebody that stands for the right. Yes, some people worry that he may be a bit rigid but at the same time, we also yearn for that type of discipline.
Nigerians feel that we need strong men, people that can take a position and stand by it and stay the course. He remind us of those days when he was there. Of course, we have to be mindful that this is now a democratic system and he may not have such powers that he had then when he was a military head of state and made pronouncements and wrote decrees. It may be difficult for him but at least, he has more rectitude from his antecedents.
He has the experience and leadership qualities. He has the training and discipline that come with the military background; he has age and wisdom on his side. I would like to think that. Some of the things he had done as a young man, he could reason differently now and then the country he is leading has grown and matured as he has.
So, I think it’s an opportunity for us to move this country forward. I like to think that if he looks beyond tribe, party and those sentiments, even beyond any historical issues that may be colouring his outlook, then Nigeria stands to benefit immensely from this change. First of all, the fact I think it says a lot for our democracy, that we have grown to a point where it is possible for that to happen.
The issue now is what are you going to do with this opportunity? When the former resident came in, there was that hope also with a lot of expectations but unfortunately, it didn’t come to pass. We have yet another opportunity and I for one, I am hopeful that Nigerians will see something different this time around.
What do you think is the best way to tackle Boko Haram?
First of all, as I always say, the sitting government has a responsibility and duty to protect lives and property.
So, they have to do that, but when some groups undermining the rule of law, then they have to act and act decisively.
Sometimes, you have to look beyond that. I think the government has to look beyond military and police action and look at the root cause, societal issues, religious issues and open a dialogue with a view to understanding why this type of ideology is able to take root and able to grow in our society. If they can take a look at that and perhaps at education, empowerment of the youths, etc, may be they can give people alternatives to this kind of indoctrination.
Would you say Nigeria is truly a united country where equity and justice prevail?
No, it is not. Many countries in the world are not either. We are a young country. I remember an interview I watched hosted by Mike Wallace and in that programme, he interviewed Loius Farrakhan and he made a comment about Nigeria being the most corrupt country in the world…I wish that you looked through the archives and see the answer that Loius Farrakhan gave him.
Nigeria is a young country in the scheme of things and if you look at where we have got to, I think we have done quite well. We don’t have to clap for ourselves or slap ourselves on the back because we have so much that we need to still do but we should not condemn ourselves either.
If you talk of Nigeria, you talk of corruption, there are many countries that are even more corrupt than Nigeria. There are many countries that have even done a lot worse to others than Nigeria. Yes, we have issues but I believe we are not the worst.
Why then is Nigeria in the limelight for corruption all over the world?
I think more than five of all black persons in the world is from Nigeria. Nigeria is a big country and I think that it’s part of the reason we attract a lot of attention. It is a difficult country economically and security-wise. We also have a leadership role in Africa, especially in West Africa.
So, certainly, we are in the spotlight but like I said, we are relatively a young country with a relatively young democracy and we would make mistakes along the way, the essence is to learn from the mistakes and move on.
Do you think Nigeria has lived up to the ‘no victor, no vanquished’ declaration made after the civil war?
It was a noble idea. The leadership didn’t have to make that statement. So, you cannot take that away. It is not easy after having won a war to show any form of magnanimity at all. Human beings are what they are. Of course, there were victors and there were vanquished.
It doesn’t take much, you can look around and see it but certainly Igbo people have been third class citizens in this society but we have had to climb up again. But, we have not helped ourselves either like I said earlier. So, in response to your question, in reality, there is no such thing as ‘no victor, no vanquished.’ The reality is that if you lose a war, you lose it and there are consequences that come with it.
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